1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
hi guys.
i've been thinking a lot about combo decks lately. now i dont realy like playing combo but its interesting brain food. so i thought i'd strike up a discussion on the topic and hope that for once people actualy contribute actively ^^.
so the first quetion probably should be what is combo ?
is Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows a combo ?
yes and no.
yes becaus by common use of the term you are combing two things. on top of that they are greater than the summ of thier parts.
no because in magic you have to differanciate between combo and synergy. this is a synergy because it is a "combo" that does not win on its own.
is Illusions of Grandeur + Donate a combo?
yes and yes.
its > than the summ of its parts ad it wins on its own.
so we have synergies and we have combos. in this thread i want to talk about combos not about synergies. so the cards that are combined have to be able to win on thier own (in an aceptable amount of time ... the 20 turns to burn someone dead with punishing fire does not count). Sometimes the lines blure sure but in general synergy makes your cards better combo lets you win now (or next turn).
combo is not = combo though. there are several diffrent subtypes. they too sometimes have subtypes. lets take a look at them:
pice combo:
i think everyone can see why these are combos. pice A + pice B + pice C = win. its that simple.
pros
it leaves a lot of room in your deck for other stuff. stuff to find the pices, to protect them or to have a backup plan.
cons
possibly the easyerst combo to disrupt. take away just one pice in the equasion and it wont work.
subtype:
pice lock:
you have a pice combo like above but it violates one of the rules i have set up. it does not win now. it does not win next turn. it might take 20+ turns to win from the turn you combo. so why is it a combo ? simple from the turn you combo your opponent is nothing more that a spectator. he can not do anything and will eventualy die.
Stasis + Kismet + Chronatog is one of the oldest examples.
deck combo:
this type is vastly diffrent from pice combo. so much so that much discussion has been held if its combo or not. virtualy every card in your deck is part of your combo.
pros
it matters what you draw but not nearly as much as it would in pice combo. you are also harder to disrupt.
cons
you have little space in your deck for defence or backup plans.
subtypes:
lock-deck-combo
ok this one is a bit bizzar. there is realy just one example i can think of but there are a lot of diffrent versions with nearly all colors in magic:
Stax
in stax every card in your deck has the goal to stop your opponent from being ablte to do anything. spheers, chalice, smokestack, ensnaring bridge, propaganda, armageddon the list goes on.
now those are the two most basic categories. however the can be mixed with other archetypes like agro or control. both can exisit as a pice or deck combo (like dredge wich i would classifie as a deck-combo / agro deck or affinty wich can classifie as a pice-combo / agro deck [ravager + disciple])
so now that we have a basic understanding of the internal makeup of combo decks and the two big camps that contest for power, would you guys like to here about historic combo decks? detailed examples of every type? ways to play and beat combo? or something totaly diffrent?
the discussion is of course open to all an the more participate the better. if you disagree with what i say (especialy the statement on affinty tends to find disagreement) go ahead lets discuss.
as a final word for now i just hope this is not going to be another thread slippinginto the board oblivion because people feel they have nothing to say or feel they are not expirianced enough to contribute. go ahead give me your oppinion its worth as mch as everyone elses. go ahgead ask questions. the only dumb questions are the ones not asked ...
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
I'm not sure that Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows would be a combo...the red mana is added to your mana pool before your life is gained so you would not be able to return Punishing Fire to your hand, right?
In my humble opinion, the only combos that work for the win are infinite combos...cards that can just do the same thing over and over again...when you find yourself saying "well, I'm just going to keep doing THIS" and your opponents submit...that's an infinite combo win...happens a lot with me because I'M AWESOME! hahaha j/k
Illusions of Grandeur + Donate? That's great if your opponent has 20 life or has less than 20 life...then its a win for sure...that's a really good one by the way...
Deck combos are AWESOME...I have a Thopter deck where every single card in the deck works with the whole Thopter Foundry/Sword Of The Meek/Time Sieve thing...Thopter Foundry/Sword Of The Meek/Time Sieve = AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME...
Lock Decks piss me off...there is one player that we don't play with anymore because the only decks he has are lock combo decks...wouldn't it piss you off if the only thing your opponent played with was yet another lock combo deck? Like, seriously...get a life and make another deck besides a lock combo deck, jeez...
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
Quote:
I'm not sure that Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows would be a combo...the red mana is added to your mana pool before your life is gained so you would not be able to return Punishing Fire to your hand, right?
No, it works. You add the mana then the opponent gains the life, causing Fire to trigger. When it resolves, you can pay that red mana to return it to your hand. Simple.
Personally, I don't define combos as things that instantly win the game. To me, the difference between combo and synergy is that combos do something more than any individual part could do alone, whereas synergy is just using the cards the way they're meant to be used.
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alterloth
Deck combos are AWESOME...I have a Thopter deck where every single card in the deck works with the whole Thopter Foundry/Sword Of The Meek/Time Sieve thing...Thopter Foundry/Sword Of The Meek/Time Sieve = AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME...
Lock Decks piss me off...there is one player that we don't play with anymore because the only decks he has are lock combo decks...wouldn't it piss you off if the only thing your opponent played with was yet another lock combo deck? Like, seriously...get a life and make another deck besides a lock combo deck, jeez...
thopter foundry is more synergy than combo and even then more pice combo then deck combo. a good way to identify deck combos is to look for a card that has storm or dredge in its textbox ^^
tyr seeing the lock as a very slow infinate loop. if he has the lock he wins end of story. if you beat him befor that you win. i think the reason casual players hate lock decks so much is that the dont feel the game is over unless they hit 0 life.
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
Combos are fun and annoying. I have a design for a standard infinite mill combo, or infinite token combo, all because it's based around infinite landfall, so technically beyond the landfall, it's infinite any thing a landfall card can do. The combo requires GWU, so I try to fit the winning landfall ability into those colors. It's truly a piece combo, because all other cards in my deck are defenses or draw. A friend of mine has taken the deck and made it more landfall in attempt to make it have more synergy. I personally think he doesn't get the point... but that's a different story.
Combo pieces:
I also have a deck that is Legacy or Classic, it's just a fun UG deck that focuses on infinite mana and infinite draw. Beyond that there are tons of ways you can choose to win. My new favorite is with drawing into a Spawnsire of Ulamog then use it's second ability to flood the board with Eldrazi. But since it's infinite mana and draw, I could just draw into an Emrakul, or other Eldrazi.
ComboA pieces:
ComboB pieces:
All of these combos can go off by turn 4 or 5.
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
I am working on a combo in Standard right now.
Training Grounds
Training Grounds
Spawnsire of Ulamog
This would give you infinite mana (yep that's right, infinite mana back in standard) or just let you use Spawnsire's final ability right away.
The SB has...
4 It That Betrays
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Pathrazer of Ulamog
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 Artisan of Kozilek
1 All is Dust
So I drop the It That Betrays, then the All is Dust (making sure I have at least 25,000,000 spawn tokens first of course), get everything you sac over to my side then get a few of my creatures back, then drop the rest of my stuff just in case you didn't feel screwed enough before.
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Twanos
I am working on a combo in Standard right now. [...]
Depending on what else is main decked, you may need to put some back up control/ help/ counter in your sideboard.
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
When I started my vamp deck it was about the Sanguine Bond / Blood Tribute.
A 6 turn kill if I had a vamp in the battlefield. I won many matches like that but its an awfull combo in my opinion.
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
i agree ^^ easy to disrupt an not very fast ... standard has never realy been the place for varaity in combo decks but at the moment there are no combo decks in standard i would play if winning was my primary goal.
extended on the other hand ... woaw its basicly zoo or combo ... and has been ever since the rotaition ... pretty unusual format at the moment. you dont see a pretty much agro or combo only meta very often.
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Twanos
This would give you infinite mana (yep that's right, infinite mana back in standard)
There was an infinite mana combo before ROE... it involved more cards though:- Lotus Cobra x2
- Ruin Ghost
- Tideforce Elemental
- Plains (cannot come into play tapped)
The Idea is that the Cobras, the Ghost and the elemental are all in play.
Tap a plains for W, then Remove that plains via Ruin Ghost, it comes back into play, the two cobras trigger, you add U and then what ever you want. Use the blue to untap the Ruin Ghost via Tideforce, then rinse and repeat. (when a land comes into play, you untap the Tideforce.)
Re: 1+1=20 a discusion on the nature of combo
I had a combo deck that worked around Summoning Station & Thopter Foundry.
I could make infinite life, damage, milling, mana or +1/+1 with almost any other card in my deck.
I dont think its a combo because its "synergy" according to Seba. But My friends hated my control deck. I just played Thopter foundry, any other station, vampire, sword and as soon as the station hit the board they just dropped out.
