Library of Leng faq Volrath the Fallen rules magic discard ability

[Ninja]

I have a Library of Leng out

I discard Demon of Death's Gate to the ability of Volrath the Fallen , putting the demon back on top of my library.

what would the power/toughness of Volrath become?

[Arix]

It stays at 6/4, and then you get disqualified for savage cheatery since you can't do that, Star Fox.

Library of Leng only lets you discard to the top of your library if you discard due to an effect, not a cost. Discarding to Volrath is a cost, not effect, so you can't put the card on top of your library.

[Ninja]

uh oh who knows how many times I played that card wrong and noone else knew either

ok same question, if I use it for kicker of Dralnu's pet putting it in my library instead of in my graveyard, can I do that without being disqualified for cheating would the pet enter battlfield with 9 +1/+1 counters effectively becoming 11/11?

the reason I am not sure about this is because discard is usually considered from hand to graveyard, but in this case card goes to library instead (replacemnt effect)

[Arix]

You can't do that either, since kicker is also a cost.

[Ninja]

ok, how about I discard a red card for Chandra Ablaze (am pretty sure this isnt a cost ), and same story, instead of discarding I decide to take advantage of Library of Leng's effect and put the red card on top of the library instead of the graveyard. Does Chandra deals the four damage to target creature or player?

[Arix]

There you go, that works.

And no, no damage is dealt. The card that's discarded on top of your library is never revealed. Since there's no way to confirm that the card is red, no damage is dealt.

[Ninja]

mmm really? so cant I just reveal it to show its red?

[Arix]

Nope. It doesn't matter what the players know - what matters is what the game knows. The card is moving from a hidden zone to another hidden zone. Since the card is never revealed (even if you reveal it of your own will, there's nothing in the game that tells you to, so as far as the game is concerned it isn't revealed), there's no way to confirm its characteristics. If you can't confirm its characteristics, then those characteristics are considered undefined.

Before the inevitable follow-up question: If the game reveals the card at any time during this process (say, an opponent controls Telepathy or Field of Dreams), then the game can see that yes, the card is red, and therefore it will deal damage.

[billy92]

what if I am playing with Oracle of Mul Daya, Library of Leng, and Chandra Ablaze. I have only one card in my hand, which I discard to the top of my library. It is red so Chandra deals the 4 dmg. The red card is now sitting revealed at the top of my library because of the oracle. Next turn I have no cards in my hand, before my draw, opponent destroyes my oracle, and the red card is turned face down again. Now I draw it, and in my main phase I discard it to Chandra's ability. Is "The Game" at this point smart enough to know that I discarded a red card since its the same one I drew?

[Arix]

No, it's not. The game needs to be7 able to verify that the card is red each time you discard it, even if both players obviously know that it's red.

[Ninja]

if the top card is not revealed, however I have a Painter's Servant in play with red as the chosen color, will discarding a card to the library cause Chandra Ablaze to deal damage?

[Arix]

No.

[Ninja]

How come? Because aren't all cards red with the Servant in play? How can the game not know that the card is red if there is an effect saying that all cards are red?

[Arix]

Well, I hate to say "because the rules say so", but because the rules say so. The rules specify that the card needs to be revealed, and if it isn't, then its characteristics are considered undefined.

701.7c. If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner's graveyard without being revealed, all values of that card's characteristics are considered to be undefined.