Yixlid Jailer rulings Tarmogoyf faq in graveyard magic power toughness

[Nidorino]

What is the Power/Toughness of a Tarmogoyf in the graveyard when Yixlid Jailer?

also how about a Lost Order of Jarkeld in the graveyard (Without Jailer?) and With Jailer?

[Arix]

Tarmogoyf's ability is an example of a characteristic-defining ability - effects the remove abilities can't remove characteristic-defining abilities, so Yixlid Jailer has no effect on it.

Lost Order of Jarkeld's ability depends on a choice made. In the graveyard, that choice hasn't been made. Since it relies on an undefined variable, that variable is 0, so its power and toughness will always be 1 in the graveyard (with or without Yixlid Jailer).

[Sphinx]

Are you sure Yixid Jailer cannot remove an ability if it's characteristic defining? I read in the comprehensive rulings, and couldnt find reference to such rule. It says that the CDAs function in all zones, but nothing about not being able to remove them

furthermore, the rulings for ovinize state: "If Ovinize affects Mistform Ultimus, the Ultimus will lose its ability that says "Mistform Ultimus is every creature type," but it will still *be* all creature types. The way continuous effects work, Mistform Ultimus's type-changing ability is applied before Ovinize's ability removes it."

which implies that the characteristic defining abilities can be removed; however, they are applied before everything else

Maybe the correct answer, is that Yixid Jailer does remove the ability of a Tarmogoyf. however since CDAs are applied first, the Power/Toughness of it is set to the number of creatures in the graveyard and then Yixid's effects are applies causing it to lose its ability, by the times its P/T has already been set.

[Nidorino]

if thats true, would that mean that the Tarmogoyf Power and toughness are basically "Locked" based on the number of card types in the graveyard when the Jailer was played, and will not change even if the graveyard gets more/less card types, until the Jailer leaves play?

[Arix]

Sphinx - That's pretty much what I was trying to say, just in fewer words. Technically it does lose the ability, but the ability still takes effect. I was just trying to put it in a less confusing manner - "it doesn't lose the ability" makes a whole lot more sense than "it loses the ability but the ability still applies", and has the same effect 99% of the time.

[Nidorino]

so is the Goyf's power/toughness LOCKED based on the number of card types in the graveyards when the jailer entered play?

[Arix]

No, it continues to update itself.

[Nidorino]

based on what if its ability is gone

[Tad]

he said its still there even though its gone

[Warrior]

Since its power/toguhness has *'s in it, and the ability that calculates it has been removed, wouldnt it be a 0/1?

[Arix]

No, that's what I've been saying. The way layers work, the ability always applies just before it gets removed.

[Merlin]

I'd have to agree that the Tarmogoyf's power and toughness would be 0/1

If we look at the layers, we have:

1 Copy Effects
2 Control Changing Effects
3 Text Changing Effects
4 Type Changing Effects
5 Color Changing Effects
6 Ability Adding or Removing Effects
7A Effects from P/T affecting CDAs
7B Any P/T setting effects
7C Effects that change P/T without setting it to a specific number
7D P/T changes from Counters
7E Power/Toughness switch

So Yixid Jailer's ability is aplied on Layer 6. When we get to Layer 7A (which is relevant to the Tarmogoyf) there is no effect to apply because the Jailer's ability wiped the Goyf's ability clean in the previous layer.

This is different from changeling, if we take the Mistform/Ovinize example, The type changing ability of Mistform is applied in Layer 4. At layer 6, it loses its ability, but its too late for that as the type changing ability had already been applied.

[Arix]

Sorry to be so frank, but...you're wrong. If you look at the rules behind the layering system, you'll see that, before any of the layers are applied, characteristic-defining abilities are applied first.

[Merlin]

no, they apply first Within each layer (rule 613.2, emphasis on "Within")

613.2. Within layers 1–6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then
all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.6). Note that dependency may alter the order in
which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.7.)

So for example CDAs in layer 5 will apply before any other effects in the same layer, but will not apply before effects in layer 4.

[Arix]

613.1. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card.

And this isn't just me talking - this exact situation came up (and I mean exact - Tarmogoyf and Yixlid Jailer) recently, and all judges at the scene agreed.

[Merlin]

Then all the judges must have been wrong.

Its true that CDAs are applied before other effects, but as I said this is done within each layer, and an effect in a later layer is never applied before an effect of an earlier layer, even if its a CDA effect.

The Goyf ability is a CDA that applies in layer 7A. But by the time we reach that layer the Jailer's ability had already been applied at layer 6.

See also this article:
The Layer System : Daily MTG : Magic: The Gathering

so if we look at the remark, it says:

"If multiple continuous effects apply in the same layer, first apply CDAs and then apply each continuous effect in timestamp order. This order may be interrupted by dependencies."

again, emphasis is on "same layer". Nowhere does it state that CDAs apply before everything in any other layers.

(btw I'm not a judge but I have played lots and lots of magic games and have read the rules tons of times... so thats how I interpret this. I could be wrong, but I dont think I am in this case)

[Nidorino]

So is the answer inconclusive

[Sphinx]

I also think that the Tarmogoyf would have its power/toughness set to the number of card types in graveyards because its a Charactersitic defining ability.

On the other hand, reading through what Merlin said and the rules, I am not 100% sure myself.

[Arix]

So is the answer inconclusive

Apparently. I will say that Merlin puts up a strong case, but I'm not convinced - it seems to hinge on the "same layer" thing, but I don't see how it's relevant in this case. I'll bring it up on the rules digest and see what happens. But until then, I would still rule that Tarmogoyf's p/t is still based on the number of card types.

[Nidorino]

so i went to judge chat and they say:

22:19 *** Firespout joined #mtgrules
.\\agic the Ruling | Rules Q&A Only, chats in #mtg or #mtgjudge | SOM FAQ: Scars of Mirrodin : Wizards of the Coast
Topic set by Lee|work!~lee.sharp@gw.wizards.com on Thu Sep 23 2010 13:14:15 GMT-0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
22:20 Firespout: hi any judges here
22:20 Firespout: ?
22:22 Firespout: hi any judges here
22:25 Firespout: ?
22:27 Firespout: hi any judges here
22:28 Firespout: ?
22:30 JFSlicer: if you have a question just ask
22:31 Firespout: yixid jailer and Tarmogoyf
22:31 JFSlicer: !yixid jailer
22:31 Datatog: Yixlid Jailer {1B} |Creature -- Zombie Wizard| 2/1. Cards in graveyards lose all abilities. � DCI-P,FUT-TS,FUT-U,Gateway-P,Vin,Leg,Cla,TSPBC
22:32 JFSlicer: !tarmagoyf
22:32 Datatog: Tarmogoyf {1G} |Creature -- Lhurgoyf| */1+*. Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1. � FUT-R,FUT-TS,Vin,Leg,Cla,TSPBC
22:32 Firespout: so tarmogoyf is in graveyard
22:32 Firespout: and jailer in battlefld
22:32 Firespout: whats the power toughness of tarmogoyf
22:33 JFSlicer: 0/1
22:33 Firespout: why
22:35 JFSlicer: because yixlid jailer removes all abilities which includes characteristic define abilities like the one on tarmogoyf
22:35 Firespout: but isnt characteristic defining abilities applied before all other abilities like in the case of mistform and ovinize
22:37 JFSlicer: one sec
22:37 Firespout: ok tnx
22:38 Anonycat: characteristic-definiting abilities that set P/T are the first part of layer 7
22:39 Anonycat: but Yixlid Jailer applies in layer 6
22:39 *** ^Edwin_Z joined #mtgrules
22:39 Firespout: ah ok tnx